So, instead of going down there and talking to them and telling them you didn't want them to stay, you called the police and had them arrested?

Jane Doe on November 15, 2011

Nice act of Christian love there, discussing!

Sam on November 15, 2011

disgusting* damn auto speller

Sam on November 15, 2011

Wow, so you went and had them arrested first, eh? Some pastoral care you have going on there. Maybe you should read Bishop Sisk's statement. Oh, but you *have* opened a couple of your other billions of properties...I guess you're practicing a little Christian charity after all...just a little.

Joe on November 15, 2011

Hipocritical teachings of religion... When understanding is sought, this church sides with the strong, NOT the weak... BOOOOOH!

IamThe99% on November 15, 2011

Nothing says Christianity like calling the police on people who were illegally thrown out of a park, had their possessions thrown in the trash, and the came to your property looking for refuge. You embody the worst of what Jesus preached against....you are the Pharisees of this era. Shame on you again. Your excuse is pretty much meaningless and cowardly.

NYC resident on November 15, 2011

Nothing says Christianity like calling the police on people who were illegally thrown out of a park, had their possessions thrown in the trash, and the came to your property looking for refuge. You embody the worst of what Jesus preached against....you are the Pharisees of this era. Shame on you again. Your excuse is pretty much meaningless and cowardly.

NYC resident on November 15, 2011

Idiots. They used bolt cutters to get in the property. Yeah, you call the cops. I don't think some old nun would have been able to persuade these people to leave.

Uncle Sam on November 15, 2011

Having to ask permission to use anothers facilities seem the right thing to do but the minority of the OWS fringe trouble group think that everyone should bend to their will and roll over for them .... how about if you had asked to use the park instead of breaking into it.. you might have gotten the answer you wanted but instead you take without asking and then cry foul when someone says no...someone else had ask for the space and were given it so maybe as I said had you approached the Church and the Lower Manhattan Cultural Center they could have come to some understanding.

An Episcopal Church Member on November 15, 2011

Uncle Sam, I don't recall seeing old nuns running TWS. They're mostly well-remunerated men in collars sitting over an economic empire. (There is a woman vicar.) To the others, this is not the embodiment of Christianity. Those are the people who are on the ground ministering to the protesters...the Protest Chaplains, Occupy Faith, etc. Trinity WS, when pushed against the wall, acts first as a front for a real estate empire. Imagine if Oral Roberts owned a ton of expensive land given to him 350 years ago and had a fancy liturgy and pretty silk costumes...

Joe on November 15, 2011

This is why the Church ought not to be wealthy and why Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. (Luke 18: 18-26)

Cherie Boeneman on November 15, 2011

(and I'm an Episcopal Church member as well and completely rebuke the entitled attitude and lack of reality of An Episcopal Church Member above....)

Joe on November 15, 2011

I'm saddened by Trinity's action. This could have been a powerful opportunity for dialogue. It's sad that instead the Church acted as Caesar instead of the great peacemaker that it is called to be.

Joseph on November 15, 2011

An Episcopal Church member: They did ask the church for permission. And the Church denied it. But, instead of coming down to talk to the protesters they called the police. They are nothing but cowardly hypocrites. And I"m an Episcopal Church member too.

Jane Doe on November 15, 2011

I can't believe how many people here are so quick to bark at an organization that's been generally supportive of our movement thus far! Its all or nothing? Come on everyone, some people got feisty and wrongfully crashed Trinity's lot without asking, first. Wouldn't you get upset if someone just took over your tent without asking (happened to me last week)? It is the "take everything attitude" which sounds more like corporate fascistic than true 99%'ers

Josh on November 15, 2011

Josh - yes, they jumped the gun, but calling the cops on them was not the answer.

Jane Doe on November 15, 2011

The Police were never "called" they were already there witnessing a breaking and entering in progress and they acted. OWS must remain lawful to keep the upper hand. "Trinity's action" has been as very supportive of the protesters, allowing them use of Charlotte's Place and other facilities. An open dialogue must be maintained by all.

Rohan DeSilver on November 15, 2011

So, a hundred police just manage to show up with a bus. And how did the police even know they were there? Great rationalization Rohan!

Jane Doe on November 15, 2011

Jane Doe: I don't know where you're from but no one had to call the police, because the police had already surrounded Duarte Square. I was there. The police have been shadowing the protesters from Liberty Plaza to Duarte Square where they regrouped. Well over a dozen Faith Leaders were also there and had just finished a prayer when some random, perhaps fringe, characters used bolt cutters to break into the fenced in area of the park. Only those who entered the restricted area were arrested. And from what I could tell, those in the public part of the park could have stayed indefinitely, but they decided to march back to Liberty Plaza. Trinity is a very good church that has been very supportive of the OWS protest.

Daniel on November 15, 2011

@Jane Doe, have you seen the news footage??? The Police were with the Protesters the entire time. The moment they were unlawfully removed from Zuccotti Park, they marched up to Foley Sq, then to 6th Ave and Canal Street with a police escort.

Rohan DeSilver in NYC on November 15, 2011

Jane Doe - were you there? You don't really have all of your facts straight, so I'm assuming you weren't. How did the police know they were there? Think about it... when protestors were removed from Zuccotti, they were weren't walking away one by one. It's easy enough for a group to have been followed. I'm supportive of the OWS movement, and the ones I have met have been respectful and willing to talk. They are not the kind that would have broken into a fenced off lot illegally, which is what happened. Get your facts straight before you go and blame an organization that has been supportive.

Jay on November 15, 2011

Trinity did not give the go-ahead to arrest them? I understand the police checked with them first. Usually the police will ask if the property owner wants to arrest/press charges. If they gave the go-ahead, why not say, "Hold on, we're sending Father Mark and some priests to speak with them"? That's the point. Yes, Trinity has done good things, definitely more than most, and I have defended them against other Episcopalians. But if they gave the okay for a mass arrest, shouldn't they be called out?

Joe on November 15, 2011

I'm not buying it. I put my pastor in the same place and imagine this whole thing unfolding here and she would never have allowed any protester to get arrested. She would've told the cops that's it's the church's property and the church will decided who gets to stay - or not.

Jane Doe on November 15, 2011

@ Joe, the Police acted when they witnessed the breaking and entering, they don't need to contact the property owners when they witness the crime.

Rohan DeSilver in NYC on November 15, 2011

Jane Doe: You don't buy the testimony of someone who was actually there? Not sure what I can tell you. The entire park was surrounded by police. As The Times reports "two protesters dressed in black, wearing black bandannas over the lower part of their faces, used bolt cutters to snip through the chain-link fence and the crowd began streaming in." I'm very much sympathetic to OWS, but clearly you can't just break in and claim land. Also, if you believe the NYPD has the restraint not to arrest those breaking into gates with giant "PRIVATE PROPERTY: NO TRESPASSING", then I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you. Also, as all this was happening, a judge was hearing arguments to allow them back into Liberty Plaza. So any way you dice it, those few who decided to break into the locked gate jumped the gun.

Daniel on November 15, 2011

I don't buy it either. I think they were given the go-ahead from Trinity. I may be wrong, but I think this press release and the news coverage would have been worded differently if they hadn't given the go-head. You may have been there, but how does that make you have all the facts either? Um, you were just a person on the ground. Again, when something like this happens, the police usually check with the property owner about what they want to do--especially if the owner is a religious organization. Try harder.

Joe on November 15, 2011

Thank you, Danial, for the real story. Many of the comments above are complaints that have no basis in fact. OWS increasingly plays up, and even creates, drama, for the sake of media attention. This approach subverts and erodes their movement's credibility and distracts it from its original focus. At the moment, OWS has started to seem to me to be a small group of people who are technologically privileged, trying to emulate the Arab Spring, out of a misplaced sense of entitlement. It takes discipline and respect for others - including others' rights and property - to build a movement that actually accomplishes things. Where are the people working to make new law, to educate, to build new businesses doing new things in new ways? Where are the consensus builders, the negotiators? There doesn't seem to be any of this going on in OWS when viewed from a distance, which is how most people see the movement. TWS does more good for more people than many realize, including most of those who have participated in OWS.

heath quinn on November 15, 2011

Like I said earlier I don't understand this confrontational attitude that a small fringe group of the OWS protest seem to take with anyone that does not tow their exact belief without tolerance for others rights. You talk of the government taking your first amendment right to free speech but take someone else’s right to the fourth amendment to feel secure in their own person and property. Do as I say not as I do. If you truly believe what you are saying then instead of breaking into the park your leaders should have gone to the clergy at Trinity Wall Street and asked for permission maybe they couldn’t give your Duarte Square but maybe they could have accommodated your requests at another location.

An Episcopal Church member on November 15, 2011

I hope OWS leaders and participants will make efforts to raise funds to rent space for their work. With the past weeks' camping-out, especially the reliance on donated food and medical care, the movement took on an infantile aspect that's counter to its original message. Making the OWS movement work within the constraints of the real world will help keep the movement on message.

heath quinn on November 15, 2011

The OWS people feel they are above the law. Like their leaders and supporters, they feel the end jusitfies the means.

budman on November 16, 2011

St. Paul's in London is doing a better a job.

HARRY on November 16, 2011

If you disagree with Trinity's position, as I do, I urge you to sign this petition to the rector: http://signon.org/sign/trinity-church-offer?source=c.tw&r_by=1551183 #30--Tell Rosa Parks that, huh? Of course the end justifies the means. Most nonviolent movements including civil disobedience are based on this principle, so you're very astute in your commentary. #28--I hope the rector, Father Mark, et al feel "secure in their property"--which is not being used for anything. Trinity has done much for the movement; it would be nice to see some consistency.

Joe on November 16, 2011

Rector Cooper, Don't you realize that the havoc and destruction created by Wall Street GREED & FRAUD and it's complicit bureaucrats, far exceed what any foreign terrorists did to us on 9/11? The Occupy activists are mostly, brave patriots, trying to recapture our democracy, founded on Christian principals. You threw your doors and resources open on 9/11. You should do likewise NOW. Corporations around the world are figuratively raping and enslaving the people, exploiting the resources, and robbing capital assets globally, and that is a catastrophe of EPIC proportions. What would Jesus do? My father fought and died for TRUE democracy. NOT what the spectator democracy charade America now has. Trinity should be doing more and should be hollering out against the atrocities of Wall Street. Remember Jesus' rage at the money-changers in the temple? "All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke

Jules C. on November 16, 2011

I feel the Trinity community which is well endowed and has powerful friends can use its influence to bring economic justice. As Martin Luther King said you can confront people morally without demonizing them. The strength of non-violent soul force is confront those who are wrong, but without stooping to the power relations that they espouse. The Episcopal Church has been engaged in an American dialogue as we all are and like our movement in contains many people with many points of view. I think it was wrong to call the police, but we should not be so quick to judge. Any issues of economic justice they will work with us on or we can work with them on, we should join together. We need to confront people's business as usual attitude without ending the dialogue. Martin Luther King continued dialoging with those who disagreed with him and thus was able to change many of them because they respected his persistence and personal commitment. I know that there are Episcopal clergy who support the occupy wall street movement. Anger doesn't change institutions. Persistent moral confrontation does. I think it would be good to organize a pray in on the steps of Trinity asking God, Higher Power, or Nature to inform the hearts of the vestry of that church into action on behalf of those treated unjustly economically.

Susan Steinmann on November 16, 2011

Please let them it. It's cold and wet and they need some shelter. Let them pitch their tents.

Ann Kemler on November 16, 2011

For the record - trinity does have a community space available to everyone, Charlotte's Place. And as Charlotte's Place regulars like me know, the Occupy movement has been welcomed with open arms. Drop the box cutters, never a good idea.

LMR on November 16, 2011

Responding to anonymous "episcopal church member" above-- yes, asking permission would be better. For over a month I and others asked if OWS kitchen could sometimes use Trinity's kitchen facility, even if it were just to boil water for tea and ramen noodles. My contact at Trinity each time asked for just a little more time to decide, just a little more time... I don't know there the team that found the vacant lot at Canal and 6th was on negotiating. Consider the context-- in a plan formulated by the great minds at Homeland Security, peaceful people rousted in the dead of night with 45 minutes warning, pushed, dragged, punched and prodded with night sticks; bridge and subway access to the area cut and riot police further preventing supporters from helping, who had 5000 books dumped in a dumpster and hand built bicycle-powered generating systems summarily scooped up by a bulldozer, who had tents and tarps cut and slashed supposedly in a search for drugs. Stressed-out people (no sleep that might, my friends at Trinity) chose to give hope to the many who had lived thru these wrongs by symbolically opening a vacant space owned by a supposed ally. The "justice" of Trinity for not asking permission was unconscionable.

Madeline Nelson on November 19, 2011

An Open Letter and Posting to Trinity Clergy (posted on the Website) I have questions for the Trinity clergy: Since you have been involved with this movement, by your own admission supporting it, how many working group meetings have you attended? I do know that in 2 months there was one aborted Spokes Council meeting held at the 2nd floor meeting space but how many working groups meetings did you attend at the many atrium locations? Please cut out the nonsense about Charlotte’s space being enough. When people were raided you did not provide a SINGLE BED. I am interested in knowing that since Liberty square is in your “parish” and you operate on the parish model that “all your neighbors are your responsibility”, why it was that you did not have the occupy alert text that about 1200 other clergy had. It is an alert text sent from the Occupiers that goes off when occupiers were threatened by a very real brutal police force. Do you all think police brutality is and the violence reigned down upon protesters is/was not real? In other words, the night the park was raided, do you realize that it is amazing that you did not know about it, and yet people from all over, and other clergy did. Yet you work right there and you knew nothing? In the midst of your listening and support for this movement you neglected to actually leave your building and connect to the movement in any real way. I am interested in how you feel about the fact that the Police came into your parish space, blocked off the whole area within your direct locale and beat people up and down the block between St. Paul’s and Trinity? How is it that NOBODY at Trinity has issued a seriously strong statement about police brutality when the Times shows a man with his arms out stretched on the gates of Trinity and a police officer poised to hit him with his Billy Club and then did. Where else have we seen state power arrayed against a man advocating for the least, the lost and the left behind be treated in such a way, his arms splayed in such manner? Where: perhaps around your neck, above the altar, traced in the sign we make every time we recite the Gsopel: dead Silence on that. Why is that this Church has hid behind its patronizing claims of “doing enough” in the midst of this movement when you did the bare minimum and then lauded yourselves without shame on your blogs etc, a claim that almost every occupier I have spoken to thinks regards as a joke, yet you cling to that fantasy. I have heard the Rector say to my face with great pride that he believes in the inviolate nature of private property, and that this is an unshakable belief. I have heard other clergy say of the desire of occupiers to use 6th and Canal, “it will never happen” again and again, even to the point of saying “that spot is for developers”. I have seen that despite the fact that Trinity clergy made no statement about police brutality, despite the fact that they knew that the space on 6th and Canal was being eyed by the Occupiers–that is a fact established 6 days before Tuesday the 15th in conversation with one of their staff—and that once the space was entered upon they allowed people to be hit and stomped on by police even as the director of communications was on the phone with an occupier. Let me set this straight for the naive straight. Trinity knew six days before the space was moved on that it was being eyed for occupation and a massive real estate company was surprised when it happened? No, that is not the way these things work. Lawyers were called, decisions were made, liabilities were considered and a decision was made as to how to proceed. Nice try gang but you ain’t got a leg to stand on. Do you see the basic fact that at some point you can’t sit on all sides of the fence. It is a specious and gutless position to position yourself as a mediator, a “conversation partner” when your institutional capacity to act locally as a church to those in real time need, real time duress betrays a VERY serious impotence. As an aside one thing I honestly did love is that you closed on the morning of the big wall street action and then the clergy were outside in Anglican cassock greeting the action as if they were supportive, standing behind them were closed doors. That move was defended as the “same thing we do when the Giants won” the super bowl!! LOL as they say. Wow, so a global movement for social and economic justice is to be treated like the Giants winning the super bowl?! To my young clergy colleagues who stood out there we have a New York saying for what you were doing, “you played yourself”. You might have well as just stood out there in a monkey suit or something because that kind of buffoonery when done would at least betray some imagination, make it playful! Lets face it guys, you dropped the ball big big time on this, two months as the only big church surrounding the Liberty square, all that real estate to boot and a few bathrooms and Charlotte’s space. Lets be straight, it wasn’t on you to save this movement, rather it was on you to actually be in it if you supported it in any real way. You made the classic trinity mistake…you took to your blogs and your media without considering the real stuff that was going happening on your doorstep. One imagines that you decided that in order be a witness you could some how do it virtually or from a distance, maybe webcast it or something. You tried to be all things to all people and failed miserably. The civil rights leaders had to move there meeting away from your site Sunday because it just wasn’t right to be on your property, but rather be in solidarity with the movement. Who would partner in dialogue with people who were not actually involved. I chatted with Phil Lawson from the elders council from the civil rights era. Do you know that he was involved, at 79, in shutting down the port in Oakland? That is being involved. What I look forward to is the Trinity Institute event that is going to be called some thing like “The Arc of Social Movements” or perhaps “Being Church in Troubled Times”. That would be an interesting evening of invigorating explanation and I am sure it will be coming down the pike well produced, oiled and for mass consumption in about 1.5 or 2 years. You got exposed…accept the gift. So John why critique Trinity so hard? This movement is about exposing the relationship between money, power and disenfranchisement of ordinary people. So my colleagues have found out what a challenge it is to serve mammon and God right at home on their doorstep, right at the center of it all. The altar at Trinity sits 900 feet from the US Stock Exchange, who is being sacrificed? To be honest after my first post urging porta potties on the porticoe of St. Paul’s 2 months ago was deleted I never expected much more, though I can say that honestly I did hope for much more. My last three encounters with staff have left me deeply compassionate in some sense: what a bind to be so beholden to your job, to your standing that you lose all sight of our call to Justice and that you will just come up with any rationale to protect your instituion, not serve that deep still voice coming up out of conscience or the Gospel but rather serve religion, and then private property interests. I ask only one thing of my brothers and sisters at Trinity. The day I let people being chased and beaten and slammed against my church gates go unrecorded please let it be the day you come after me with serious ire. Come straighten me out, remind me of the high calling we share. In conclusion may May I suggest you google C.R.E.A.M. by the wu tang clan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15lmrWx8lLU …it lays bare the dilemma as music often does. Sometimes the sword of Christ makes us move from the middle, you can’t be all things to all people. Good Luck, maybe we can partner sometime down the road. By the way I look forward to the conversation you recorded without my knowledge being on your website in its entirety, I take the accusation of being a “troublemaker” by the Rector to be a pretty solid compliment. At least send me the clip to put on my facebook page. Thanks!

Rev John Merz Episcopal Priest Brooklyn NY on November 21, 2011

When the New York CIty police razed the village in Zuccotti Park I walked all night around those downtown streets, past the people walking with their bedding in their arms, past the line of police protecting the stock exchange, and past closed doors, including those of Trinity Church. I was thinking about other nights people have waited with friends before soldiers came to arrest someone, other nights people wandered looking for refuge and no one would let them in, other nights people trying to tell the good news of a new world being born were hunted and maligned and given no place in the old world that couldn't recognize them yet. Someday when the histories of our time are written they will note the blind violence and greed; they will also note the less visible complacency, the people and institutions who did not violently resist the changes toward a real 'world of good' but also did little or nothing to help them manifest. Through its ownership of the space at 6th Avenue & Canal Street, Trinity Church has an opportunity, right now, to be accounted for in those histories on different terms: among those who actively gave of their treasure and themselves to get that new world of good born. I hope very much that the Trinity leadership will have the clarity and the courage to make this choice, to allow this space you own to be a new village, where we can all make and see what this world of good might be.

Suzanne Gardinier on November 26, 2011

Out of sight: Out of mind. Imagine if Jesus of Nazareth would had practice such believes.

PR_uno on December 6, 2011