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DiggThe Objective of Islam is Peace
Tariq Ramadan on the importance of intellect in faith, the difference between tolerance and respect, and what he sees as the universal message of religion.
Robert Owens Scott: Do you see a tendency in religion to foment violence?
Tariq Ramadan: Look, if we want to get rid of violence, we have to get rid of human beings. It has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with us. We have to master our inner violence. Every one of us has to do this. You educate yourself to become a democrat; you educate yourself to become nonviolent.
In every single religion, there is a dimension dealing with violence. To master it, to control it, to educate ourselves to go beyond it; this is what we’re asking. In every religious text — the Bhagavad Gita, the Bible, the Koran — you have passages dealing with violence. Because they are talking about human beings. They are talking about dealing with perceived enemies, or true enemies. And it’s a struggle. How do you solve this?
ROS: And yet so much violence, when you look at the news, seems to be religiously inspired.
TR: It’s not religiously inspired. It’s that we are using religions when we are dealing with power — when we are dealing with domination. This is really why we need, from the very beginning, to understand that there is no true religion without effort, discipline, and education. Because if you are confusing your religious commitment with emotions, your emotions can be blind. And it comes to violence.
The difference between spirituality and emotion is very deep. Spirituality is what you get after a very deep education, at the bottom of your heart. And emotion is at the surface of your being. And you have to be cautious not to confuse the two. And sometimes violence is exactly in between.
ROS: Some of the critics of religion say it’s a different kind of education; it’s an education in believing things that are irrational. And so therefore, the so-called moderate religion is as guilty as extremist religion, because it’s a training ground for irrationality. Do you recognize religion in that?
TR: No, not at all. I think this is an outsider vision of what religion is all about. There is no way to come back to your heart without using your mind. When you are dealing with the deep teachings of your religion, you understand that there is no way to be a true believer with a very deep faith without using your mind. Intellect is part of a deep faith. It’s not the contrary.
ROS: Some will say: yes, religion is good, but the extremists cause violence. Do you think that’s a fair distinction? Or are the seeds of violence everywhere?
TR: Many people say the problem is in the text. Or in the historical figure. I say, a text is a text. At the end of the day, the text is saying something, yes. We have to rely on this. But we also have to look at the readers.
In the texts, the scriptural sources, there are references to violence, to historical context, and we have to deal with it. We have to educate the readers to be able to put things into context, to use their minds, and to understand when you quote a verse, it’s already an interpretation. You are not speaking in God’s name. Be careful. You are mediating a revelation through your mind. And here you have to accept with humility that it’s a human being trying to understand what was coming from God.
ROS: You’ve mentioned that Islam is a universal message. But that doesn’t mean to you that everyone should become a Muslim. Correct?
TR: The point is what this universal message is telling me about the others. Is it telling me that I have to convert them? Is it telling me that there is only one truth and everything else should disappear? No, it’s exactly the opposite. It’s much more than tolerance, it’s something which is respected.
The difference I’m making between tolerance and respect is that I can tolerate you without knowing you, by ignoring you. But there is no true respect without mutual knowledge. And this is why we have a verse of the Koran, “And we made you tribes and nations in order for you to know each other.” This mutual knowledge is something which is really important. Why? Because out of this mutual knowledge, I’m going to know you, but not only this. You are a mirror. I’m going to know myself better.
ROS: What do you say to the argument that it’s just not intellectually coherent to respect another religion if you really believe that yours is the truth?
TR: I think that we have to go beyond this apparent intellectual contradiction to understand that your heart is close to the truth, and your mind is understanding that there are different dimensions. That you cannot get it all. So there is no contradiction. This is the only true spiritual message: deep faith and respect toward diversity. Why? Because this diversity is helping you to be humble. And there is no faith without humility.
ROS: You called for a moratorium on the practice of stoning. And people challenged you about not just calling for it to be eliminated. You responded that change takes time. Could you talk about that?
TR: If you don’t understand the logic of this call for a moratorium, you can’t understand what is going on within the Islamic majority society, even the Muslim communities.
In the Koran, you have texts dealing with corporal punishment and death penalty, and in the Prophetic Tradition as well. And you have in the Prophetic Traditions texts dealing with stoning. So okay. The texts are here.
My position on the moratorium was to stop, to open a debate. It’s the only way to move the people, to let the people understand where we are starting the discussion and what we want to achieve. It’s the only way when it comes to Muslims to be able to be heard. Why? Because you are not denying that this is in the texts. It is. Let us come to the texts again, and while we are opening the debate, we stop implementing this everywhere. Not only stoning, but all the penal code: the death penalty, corporal punishment.
ROS: If religion isn’t a force for violence, how is it a force for peace?
TR: When I was asked what the main objective of Islam is, I used to say justice. Now I have changed this. In fact the highest objective is peace.
I was talking once about justice with a Red Cross worker. We were talking about Palestine and South Africa. And he said, “You know, Tariq, there is something missing.” I said, “What?” He told me, “Forgiveness.” And he’s right. There is no peace without forgiveness, because if you are obsessed with justice, you can be very dogmatic, very unfair. Because you don’t forget. You don’t forget about the mistakes, you don’t forget about what was wrong. There is no peace without forgiveness.
Religion teaches us forgiveness. This is the way, the condition towards peace. I think that the Christian understands exactly what I mean, and the Jew understands exactly what I mean, and the Buddhist. I think this could help us toward a multi-dimensional understanding of what it means to promote peace. It’s a universal message. Let us come to this common ground.
Tariq Ramadan writes and speaks on the future of Islam in pluralistic society. He is Senior Research Fellow at St. Antony's College, Oxford and the author of In the Footsteps of the Prophet: Lessons from the Life of Muhammad.
Robert Owens Scott is the director of Trinity Institute.
This article appears in the Religion and Violence issue of Trinity News.
